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Industry Trends
February 16, 2024
min read
Tania Isakovich

Key Insights into the Creator Economy from ThoughtLeader's CEO

Before founding ThoughtLeaders, David Tintner was a developer, and co-founded a competitive intelligence SaaS platform, which was acquired by SimilarWeb. He then transitioned into content creation, founding Hacking UI, a blog that evolved into a successful podcast. Leveraging on his success, David capitalized on sponsor interest, and built ThoughtLeaders. The company uses extensive data to help brands and creators in their sponsorship campaigns. This bootstrapped venture attracted clients like Fetch Rewards and, quadrupling in size within a year. Today, as ThoughtLeaders’ CEO, David remains an important figure in deciphering the dynamics of digital content sponsorships.

David recently sat down with Eitan Koter for his podcast “eCom Pulse”. In his interview, David shares the journey of building ThoughtLeaders, and also talks about the challenges and potential solutions in the digital content sponsorship space:

What are the major challenges that brands face when sponsoring digital content? [12:17] 

One of the biggest challenges is knowing if it's a good sponsorship for the brand and if the price that the creator wants is going to be valuable for the brand. Because in theory, every channel could be valuable or worth it for a brand at some price, right? If a creator says this is a dollar, it might be worth it. But the pricing is completely unstandardized in the creator sponsorship space. You can reach out to two virtually identical channels and they can give you prices that are miles apart. We help with understanding the price and gauging if it’s valuable. Look, it’s a negotiation between brands and creators. And the brands want to get performance for their ad. For a creator, they have valuable pieces of real estate within their content. And it's not their fault if the brand's landing page crashes or the brand's product is just not as good. So finding a middle ground between them both is not always easy. But we try to help both sides with data. Brands can analyze a creator's recent views to find common ground. Similarly, creators can justify their prices with data, showcasing the long-term value of their content. If you have data that shows that your content is really “evergreen”, meaning it will get a lot of views way after the 30-day mark, this is something that can help prove your worth.”

How do you see the future of revenue sources evolving for creators?  [26:00] 

So I personally think that advertising is going to remain the biggest portion and the most important revenue source for content creators. And let’s talk about the alternative revenue sources for a moment: So you have paywalls, like Patreon or subscriptions, where essentially if you as my viewer pay me directly, as the content creator, then I will give you some new content or some special thing. Well, for me, this is kind of problematic on a global scale. I'm not suggesting that creators shouldn't do this, but I'm just saying if everyone did this, we'd live in a world where only if you're rich enough to pay for creators, you get the good content. Another income for creators is merchandise or making their own brands and selling the products. So merch is something you know, creators should definitely do. But how many shirts can you sell? This income stream is not gonna beat advertising. It can be a nice side source of income for some creators, but it's just not gonna be a bigger thing. 

Another alternative is that creators can make their own brands. So for example, a cooking creator can make a line of knives. Cool. All the people who are watching his content are probably going home and cooking themselves, and they can buy his knife. So, this can work, and again, I'm not saying don't do it, but is this for the vast majority of creators, is this going to become larger than advertising? No way. Because effectively what you're doing is you have to run the entire business:  the logistics, the product, the shipping. Everything. And I know there are companies that are helping creators do this, but you have to spin up a whole new product line, and then you still have to advertise it within your own content… And I find that for many creators, it might not make this whole logistics operation worth it. And just to point to a good example: MrBeast made his own chocolate, Feastables. And in almost every video he does now, he talks about Feastables. But he's still doing multi-million dollar brand deals per video for a completely different product. So I think advertising is going to be a really important revenue source for creators for a long time.”

What are your thoughts on the use of AI in the creator economy? [30:31]

Before I started my own company I worked in R&D, so obviously I like technology. But since ChatGPT came out, the pendulum has swung really far to everyone thinking that AI is already way better than it currently is…I personally find that every time I'm trying to use specifically, a chat GPT type thing like large language models, to completely automate an important business process that I have, it doesn't quite work perfectly. Now I see the potential, and I know it's evolving quickly… And we're incorporating AI in our work all the time. For example, our process for detecting sponsorships within videos. We implemented a large language model to improve portions of the data pipeline that we have for this. And we can make accuracy improvements there, which are great. But still, we found it couldn't work perfectly with only that. It does take some important manual tasks. So it’s not yet replacing the important business processes for us.” 

Are advertising budgets shifting to short form content?  [36:00] 

“YouTube created shorts to try to catch up to TikTok because they saw that TikTok was a real threat. It created a kind of chaos where creators didn't really know what to do. They were trying to follow where the money was because they needed to get paid and it wasn't clear where they should focus. And what I've seen happen is that the pendulum has swung a bit back towards long form. The money isn't really there in the short form content and definitely not anywhere near where it is in the long form content.

People also thought that the common thing to say is that attention spans are so low, nobody can watch anything for more than 12 seconds anymore. And I think this was also proven to not be completely accurate. One of the biggest content creator success stories of 2023 was Lex Friedman, who does a four and a half hour podcast interview.  

So I would say that the long form is the higher quality content. And I hope that the money continues to move back into long form content. I've seen it move back from where it was about a year ago.I think that YouTube has also realized that the threat of Tik Tok is kind of at bay. There is a threat there, but they're not exponentially taking over the YouTube audience every day like they were, maybe two years ago. And it's really hard to monetize short form content because putting up a 12 second video just talking about a brand is not the same thing as working a brand naturally into a content that is 30 minutes long.”

You can check out the full podcast interview here.


**0:00:00 - EITAN:** In today's episode, I explore the dynamic world of digital content sponsorship with David Tinner, CEO of Thought Leaders. David shares his journey in creating his innovative YouTube intelligence platform and how it leverages data analytics to connect brands with the right content creators. He delves into the importance of long-form content, the role of AI in influencer marketing, and the advantages of bootstrapping technology companies. Tune in for a deep dive into a tech innovation journey and gain valuable perspective on the future of digital content.

**0:00:32 - EITAN:** Welcome to the Ecom Pulse, your heartbeat to the world of e-commerce. Join us as we meet industry leaders, innovative entrepreneurs, and passionate professionals who are at the forefront of the e-commerce revolution. From groundbreaking technologies to marketing magic, Ecom Pulse is your insider guide to all things e-commerce. So plug in, gear up, and get ready for a pulse-pounding journey into the heart of e-commerce.

**0:01:11 - EITAN::** Welcome everybody. I have a special guest today, David Tintner, CEO of Thought Leaders, the YouTube intelligence platform. Welcome, David. How are you?

**0:01:14 - DAVID:** Hey, doing great. Thanks for having me.

**0:01:17 - EITAN:** It's great to have you on the show, David. Let's start with your personal story. Please share with us your professional journey and what inspired you to found Thought Leaders.

**0:02:00 - DAVID:** Sure. Well, I was a content creator myself. I was making content about web design and web development, which is kind of professional B2C content. I had a blog, an email newsletter, and a podcast. This was in 2012-2013, a bit before the concept of creators really took off. What I found when I was making this content was that even though my audience was growing and I knew that people were resonating with the ideas and the things that we were talking about, it wasn't that easy to monetize this content. It wasn't there back then. There was the obvious stuff like putting Google ads on your website, but all of that programmatic advertising was optimized for huge content sites, B2C stuff, blogs that were getting tons of views and impressions. It wasn't paying based on how valuable their opinion was. So, I thought there was this gap in the market for really good content creators, people who were developing an audience, people who could sway their audience with their opinion, especially if they were to give their endorsement about a specific product. If they were to say, "I love this microphone, this is the microphone to buy," then their audience should go and buy it. That's actually what most brands really want when they pay for advertising. So, there's this gap in the market between brands getting the value that they really want and how the advertising was paying creators. I wanted to really hone in on that. I found that when I did direct advertising sales, when I went to the products that I was already using and just reached out to them as a content creator and said, "Hey, I'm using your software, I love it, I'd like to share it with my audience," even these big companies were responding back to me as this little content creator and saying, "Wow, that's a great idea." And they're willing to pay much more for that than I could get from some kind of programmatic ad server. So, I started doing this as a content creator with a company called Hacking UI, and I had a partner in that whose name was Sige. We both reached out to all the products and the companies that we were using ourselves, and it started going really well. We found there was still a ceiling of what we could get paid for the ads that we were doing because there was still a measurement taken into consideration by the brands of what our audience size was. We were getting paid much more than we would from any other platform, but there was still a ceiling. So, what we started doing to break that ceiling was reaching out to other content creators of similar types of content and saying, "Why don't we sell your ads for you? We're going to go to companies that you're already talking about in your content and do the deal for both of us, and we can get more money." That experience as a content creator, really testing the market to see that gap, led to the beginnings of Thought Leaders. So, Thought Leaders was founded with the idea of how can we connect brands and creators to make perfect matches. The idea is that a perfect brand-creator match will be something that the audience of that creator will find valuable. If I was creating content about web design and I explained my exact web design workflow as I moved from InDesign to maybe the JetBrains IDE I was using, my audience wanted to hear about that. And when they heard it coming from me, they valued that opinion. They said, "Oh, I'm going to try it if he's using this design software, this development software, I'll try it." So, it was working really well for brands. That was the journey leading up to the creation of Thought Leaders.


EITAN: And you know in terms of thought leaders, you are known as the YouTube intelligence platform. Can you explain what it is and how is it changing the landscape of digital content sponsorships?


DAVID: So what we found pretty early on was that YouTube was this crazy powerful source of content. You know it's video, it's just in every country, absolutely massive. There's people coming to it looking for everything. And what going back to the original ideas of trying to match Brands and creators what we found was that if you can find the perfect Creator on YouTube to promote your brand then amazing, great. But it's pretty hard to find the perfect Creator correct? There's so many things that you would want to know about a YouTube channel before you would say this is perfect, this is the channel That I Want to promote my brand.


DAVID: So we started diving into that and trying to analyze channels and figure out what would make them a perfect fit for that brand. So we do a few interesting things, for example, one we developed our own model for picking brand mentions out of contents. We look even within the transcripts of YouTube videos, the descriptions, the titles and we find mentions of the brands and then we also determine if the mention of the brand was sponsored or organic.


DAVID: Imagine that you saw that same competing app sponsored once a year ago and never came back well that could also be a signal that it's not going to work for you. So understanding sponsorships within content is really helpful to building out a media plan and determining what kind of channels to buy but that's just one angle of it. There's so many things you might want to know about channels content and what we try to do is really expose the data, give our own calculations and our kind of twist on the world of intelligence is that we let the user really customize the reports and dive into whatever it is they might mean. So brand safety is another angle for that interesting


EITAN:. So you spend a lot of time aggregating data analytics on the platform building your own technology platform making sure that you can match brand to a specific Creator based on their past performance characteristics you know character the videos itself. And so what is the best I mean how brands are engaging with you I mean there are getting access to this technology platform is it a service component that you provide or maybe it's a mix and match of both?


DAVID: It's both. It starts with the technology platform so we have a technology platform for both. We serve five different personas really Brands and media agencies on the buying side, we serve creators and talent agencies on the selling side and also Creator services companies companies that want to reach creators and they get access to a technology platform which they can use freely and see all the data there's nothing that's like internal only or hidden for us and we also have a service component on top of that.


DAVID: Something that's really important for us is that it's all done really openly so a brand can come to us and say look  I have an internal team and I want them to manage this with this Creator sure absolutely here you go or they could say  you know I don't have a team we're really capped out we don't have any capacity excuse me  so we need your help to do all it so there's a spectr of how much they want of that service component but we can take it you know all the way to the to the end if they want great.


DAVID: Well in specifically buying sponsorships with creators with YouTubers yeah  one of the biggest challenges is knowing if it's a good sponsorship for you and specifically if the price that the Creator wants is going to be valuable for you because in theory every channel could be valuable or worth it for a brand at some price right if a Creator says this is a dollar you know it might be worth it  but the pricing is completely unstandardized in the Creator sponsorship space  you could reach out to two virtually the same channels and they can give you prices that are miles apart  yeah so we help with understanding the price and if it's valuable and most importantly look it's a negotiation right between Brands and creators and the Brands they want to get performance for their ad they want to pay you know a dollar and they want to get back more than that in sales  for a Creator they have valuable you know piece of real estate within their content and it's not their fault if the Brand's you know landing page crashes or the Brand's product is just not as good some products are not as good as other products right so it's not all their fault either right sure so finding kind of the middle ground between them both  is not always easy but what we find on the way we kind of try to solve it is we try to help both sides come back to it with data so  a brand can come to a Creator and say look like I I looked at the views that you've received on your videos over the last  90 days and I kind of have a projection of what I think a likely amount of views the next video you put out will be when that video is let's say 30 days after publishing and I remove moved you know or maybe I censored the the one outlier because you did have one viral video but it went like crazy viral and it was a real outlier and I see that if you know realistically I can project something like you know 150,000 views and a reasonable CPM on that and basically a brand can come to a Creator looking with real data that and they can find that middle ground and by the way we we have the platform is available for creators.

0:15:54 **DAVID:** And by the way, we have the platform available for creators and talent agents too, so they can do the same thing to a brand. Many, many times I've seen it's the opposite; a brand is saying, "What? I don't believe it's worth that price you're asking for." And the Creator is also able to come with data and show them, "Well, this is why I think it's a fair price. There are some things in the market that I think you can't break. For example, there are kind of reasonable CPMs that are attributed to different types of content or different geographies. But showing with data that maybe your content is going to continue to get a lot of views way after the 30-day mark, right? Maybe this is really Evergreen content, can be something that can help.

0:16:41 **DAVID:** Yeah. And in terms of brand, I mean, obviously they're working with those influencers for discovery, for conversion, for a variety of, you know, the life cycle funnel. How do you see Brands, , you know, today, you know, in the current economy, evaluate your KPIs in terms of success of these campaigns?

0:17:37 **DAVID:** Most of the brands that we work with have pretty strict performance goals, like conversion goals they want to see for the campaigns. The evaluation could be something like, , the price that they pay for going back to the app example, per install of the app. It could be a sales target if it's a different type of product. It can be leads, , getting a lead can be a target for a B2B product, maybe. So, and when brands come to us and they don't have those performance goals strictly laid out, we help them try to find that because I think that's important, not just for the brand, but also for the Creator. Going back to the Creator and saying, "Look, this is what I need to achieve, you know? , I have real nbers. I'm evaluating your channel against every other channel. And if you can help me achieve this, we can consider this thing a success." And most importantly, if the Creator knows what's success, then we can have a real long partnership together. Right? If I can find successful, , if I can run successful ads with you, then we can continue doing it.

0:18:14 **DAVID:** so in terms of tracking, right? Because knowing your conversion goal or target is important, but then tracking it is equally important, right? Because if you're not tracking it correctly, then you might think that you didn't get it, and you did, or vice versa. , so there's a few ways that it can be tracked. Uh, on YouTube sponsorship specifically, some of the common ones are using, like, a vanity URL, right? ,, right, for the, you know, the sponsorship I did with the MrBeast channel. , giving a specific discount code is another way, , and then seeing how many redemptions you have with that code. , there's QR code is something that's getting more popular on YouTube now. , and all of these things should be used kind of with just a grain of salt because you have to remember that you may be, especially on YouTube, especially if you're doing sponsorships with large creators like the MrBeast example, it's very unlikely that every single person will see your product for the very first time on that one sponsorship and then immediately go and convert, whatever your conversion goal is, right? Sure, they may have seen you on three other YouTube channels before, and this fourth time was the time that decided to do it. Yeah. So it's important to track this stuff but then to kind of build, , some prediction models that understand, , , what were the actual , likely inputs to get those outputs because it's probably, it's almost definitely, I can say, not so clear as just, you know, I got ten discount code redemptions from this channel the day after the video went live. So that's that's my performance. It's almost definitely not that. 

0:20:15 **DAVID:** Well, just like the lack of standardization with pricing, there's a complete lack of standardization here too. But the good ones, I could tell you what would make a really good sponsorship is the Creator who comes to that brand, , or that potential brand deal and is evaluating it like crazy and really truly considering if they would use this product themselves and if they can endorse it in front of their audience. And, , you know, sometimes that means asking hard questions of the brand or really testing the product or taking some time before they, you know, they, they film the integration, you know, so they really believe in the brand. , but let's asse that, sure, like the Creator now has done that and they believe in the brand they, they have decided that this is a product they can endorse. Well, then the creative aspect of it is really important too, that the sponsorship feels natural within the content that they would have produced anyway. , there's a cooking YouTuber, uh, who I really like, his name is Adam Ragusea. And he is an absolute expert at these transitions. , so he's built up an amazing channel, really good content over the years. And, , he does content in this kind of style of like he's a at-home chef, and he makes you feel like, "Man, like I can make this." Like, yeah, like it's not, you know, it's not like a Gordon Ramsay crazy, pretentious thing. It's like, "No, like, oh man, I might even have those ingredients in my fridge right now. Like, if Adam can do it, yeah, I can do it too." And the kind of the spin that he adds on top of it is that he likes to get into a bit of the science of the, what he's making, right? And I'm telling you this because I'm trying to share that this guy's built up a character, right? And, yeah, and just as a fan of the channel, I kind of know, like, his character, right? Even though it's a cooking channel, like, he shows you a recipe for a spaghetti, like, it's a cooking channel, but he has this character. , so he can take a sponsorship that seemingly has nothing to do with cooking and work it into a spaghetti recipe video perfectly. And I highly suggest anyone who's thinking about doing sponsorships go look at Adam Ragusea's channel and see, you know, just a few of the sponsorships that he's done and how he transitions into it. But the point is that I can come to his channel looking for, , you know, his New York Pizza recipe, and three minutes into a video, he can essentially pause the video for 30, 60 seconds or something and do an ad for Squarespace, a website builder. Okay? And as a viewer of that content who came there looking for New York pizza recipes, that is ok.



**DAVID:** I think if we can do more of that we can both help creators get paid because they need to get paid to make good content and as viewers we can also enjoy our experience. It doesn't have to be bad yeah and obviously you know personalization is  a way to probably discuss you know the introduction of AI right to influencer marketing and how AI is influencing this and you know according to influencer marketingHub like 63% of companies plan to use AI in executing their influencer campaigns. 

**EITAN:**so what are your thoughts on AI where do you see this being used right now and in the future?  


**DAVID:** Well, I you know I say this my background is technical right I I uh I'm a developer  I started my own company I worked in a data company an R&D so I obviously I like technology I use technology and I know about technology but I do think that  most most recently you know since chat GPT really came out the pendul has swung really far to everyone thinking that AI is already way better than it currently is and I think  to answer your question the more kind of helpful take that I can give on things right now instead of just being another voice of like AI is going to you know take over everything and we don't need to do anything that's what everyone's kind of saying and you know it could solve all our problems and again I'm for technology I'm a technologist like I'm for it but I think the more helpful kind of take I can give now is that I personally find that every time I'm trying to use  specifically you know a chat gbt type thing large large language models to  completely automate an important business process that I have it doesn't quite work all the way yet. Sure now I I see the potential right and I know it's evolving quickly and I'm I'm definitely not trying to say that it never can do it I'm just saying that to the to going back to like the the statistic of you know I don't know 63% of of companies are using AI in their campaigns we're we're trying this all the time right and it's not yet replacing the important business processes for us it can maybe give  a leg up on some of the less important processes the things where we were doing them manually and we were kind of we were like okay with them not being done that well  so there there are some areas where we've been able to implement it already  but it's just not quite there I'm saying this you know January 21st 2024 it's not quite there yet for the important business processes and I think that  it probably won't be there in a super meaningful way to completely replace things like this year right so we're watching it really closely we're trying stuff always we are finding some ways to change out the less important stuff  but  yeah like search like scripting probably and stuff yeah like the non art or production style of you know creating the videos and still need to be a han process and a manual process obviously and  and look I will be super happy when it when it does right I mean I think it can lead to amazing things  but I just think  there's still like that that last bit that doesn't quite fit perfectly sure but without that last bit like the the process isn't isn't done correct correct now it's great to hear that you're exploring you know AI obviously implementing this in your platform so keep us up to date with any breakthrough there David in terms recom yeah go ahead just just kind of again so like we're totally exploring it right for example our process for  detecting uh sponsorships within uh within videos so we we did Implement  a large language model to improve portions of the pipeline the data pipeline that we have for this yeah  and there's we can make accuracy improvements there which are great  but still it it are we found it couldn't work you know perfectly with only that right sure  yeah sure yeah but thanks some you know important you know manual task or some automation task that but it's not something that you can definitely complete a full process from 

EITAN: How do you see short form versus long form, specifically on YouTube? And how do you see changes in short vs long-form influence advertisers and where do you see the budgets are going?  


**DAVID:** So shortform came out like you know crazy specifically YouTube was trying to catch up with Tik Tok right right and  and I'm saying this from you know the mindset of like uh someone who deeply is involved with YouTube uh but obviously you know there's Instagram res and Snapchat all of that but  YouTube created shorts to try to catch up to Tik Tok and they saw that Tik Tok was real threat and that if they didn't do something there they would lose this entire audience right and it's a younger audience and it's important they have this audience on the platform even though the older audience is currently worth more money to them but if you don't have the younger audience then you you won't have them in the future when they're the older audience corre exactly so  so they really pushed hard with shorts and in my opinion this made for a really bad experience for a lot of last year  it created like kind of a chaos it where creators didn't really know what to do  they you know they're trying to follow where the money is because they need to get paid and it wasn't clear and  what I've seen happen is that the pendul is swung a bit back towards long form uh there the money isn't really there in the short form content  and definitely not anywhere near where it is in the long form content I think that also people  thought that you know the the common thing to say is that like atttention spans are so low nobody can watch anything more than you know 12 seconds anymore and I think this was also proven to be not completely accurate I mean one of the biggest you know I would say content creator success stories of 2023 was Lex fredman who does a four and a half hour podcast interview with you know and so tell me again how nobody can listen to anything for more than 12 seconds like so what I've seen is that or my I guess hot take on this whole space is that short form is obviously easier to create than long form and what happened was the supply of short form content just blew up and  and everyone thought that that's what all we want is short form because the the supply was there just there was you know also a bunch of tools for making short form content easier  but I personally find when I'm just you know mindlessly scrolling Tik Tok or YouTube shorts that the satisfaction I get or the feeling that I have after I've scrolled for 30 minutes on short form content is like is really bad I I don't find that I'm I'm feeling afterwards like oh that was like a great scroll session you know I just learned so much awesome stuff I feel really good right now I don't know I get like all sorts of weird stuff that I you know they know is like I feel that someone is like poking around my brain and trying to addict me I I get all the you know the satisfying videos that are like  cleaning off stuff and yeah and  and when I'm watching long long form content I Le the type of content I tend to watch is I watch  you know explanations of historical events  or uh tutorials


**David:** to play guitar or cooking with a SP of science, right? Math videos and they're really interesting and YouTube has like these amazing creators who can take a physics concept and make it fun. And I say this, you know, from my own personal experience and also the same I see the same thing when I put on content for my son, a three and a half-year-old son who is, you know, watching stuff on YouTube as well. And I see that I can put on a video about space for kids and he's into it even though it's educational and it's long-form.


**Eitan:** Wow, David, this is great stuff. On a different subject completely: I know Thought Leaders is a bootstrapped company and we've been talking about it quite a bit. You know VIMMI is also a bootstrapped company, you know, both of us trying to scale globally without external funding. So, I mean, I would like to know this decision to go bootstrapping is something you've decided from the get-go or is it something that you saw the company growing and you decided somewhere along the way to keep it that way? Tell us a little bit about the bootstrapping journey from your perspective.

**David:** Yeah, so with Thought Leaders, this was 100% planned and a conscious decision from the beginning. Okay? And I really believe in it. I had a previous startup where we were funded and we were always kind of chasing investors and trying to get investors to believe in this theoretical product concept that we had and give us money so we can go build it. And I didn't really like that. Maybe it's, I don't know, maybe I'm just not that good at getting investors to give me money or maybe it's really something that I had a problem with. But I didn't really like chasing investors to fund this concept of a dream and give me the money to go build it. I also didn't want to give up control of the company to someone who's not in the company. So, those are the two kind of fundamental reasons why I wanted to bootstrap with Thought Leaders. Look, if the company – there are industries, you know, if you're doing something in medicine, whatever, right? Or rockets, I understand that bootstrapping isn't for every industry, right? You can't iterate a new medicine, right? You could hurt people, people could die if you give them medicine that isn't good, right? But if you're dealing with content advertising and you can't find any way to get someone, somewhere to pay you for what you're delivering along the way, then I think you need to ask some hard questions if you're actually delivering any value. So, with Thought Leaders, we started by the – we've been a technology company from day one and my background is technology. We wanted to build something really big, but the way that we got revenue from day one was effectively offering services that over time would – the technology would do instead of the service or parts of it, right? Or would at least augment the service. We use the margin from services to build our technology platform and totally build this – even so, we reinvest all of the profits back into growing the company. And yeah, we've been doing this for about seven years now.


**Eitan:** Great. So, David, it was a pleasure inviting you to the episode and being here as a guest. Really appreciate the time and effort. We'd love to catch up and hear our progress in the future. So, thanks a lot. Hope to see you soon. Bye-bye.


**David:** Yeah, thanks for having me, and I hope it was something useful for the people listening in.

EITAN:  Thank you for joining us on this episode. Your support means the world to us. If today's episode has been insightful for you, consider sharing it with someone who would also benefit. Even one share can make a big difference. Looking to elevate your e-commerce game? Discover Vim, a multi-channel e-commerce platform that will transform your business with the power of shoppable video. Visit us at to learn more. It's Vim, V-I-M-M-I dot net. Thank you for being part of our journey. Stay tuned for more invaluable insights in our next episode.

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